Tuesday, January 11, 2011

2000 Shadow Guard List

Librarian-100
Gate of Infinity, Null Zone

10 Sternguard-315
4 Combi-Meltas, 2 Combi-Plasma, Drop Pod

Ironclad Dreadnought-200
2 Hunter-Killer Missiles, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod

Ironclad Dreadnought-190
Hunter-Killer Missile, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod

5 Tactical Marines-175
Sergeant- Combi-Melta
Twin-Linked Lascannon Razorback

5 Tactical Marines-175
Sergeant- Combi-Melta
Twin-Linked Lascannon Razorback

5 Tactical Marines-175
Sergeant- Combi-Melta
Twin-Linked Lascannon Razorback

5 Tactical Marines-175
Sergeant- Combi-Melta
Twin-Linked Lascannon Razorback

Land Speeder-70
Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer

Land Speeder-70
Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer

Land Speeder-70
Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer

Predator-85
Heavy Bolters, Autocannon

Predator-85
Heavy Bolters, Autocannon

Vindicator-115

An optimized list, but with my own tweaks and preferences. Thoughts?

12 comments:

  1. I like where this is going, but I think you could get some more mileage out of your Razorbacks and Tac Squads. How about...

    Librarian - as above

    Sternguard - as above

    Ironclad - drop pod

    Standard Dreadnought

    10 Tac Marines - Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Razorback w/ Lascannon and TL Plasmagun, x4 squads

    Land Speeder as above, x2

    Predator as above, x2

    You lose a Speeder, the Vindicator, the TL status of your lascannons, and downgrade a Dreadnought. Via combat squads you double your scoring units, gain extra anti-personnel shots, a Devastator squad's worth of firepower, a permanent special weapon rather than a combi,and 4 TL plasmaguns.

    -Ben

    ReplyDelete
  2. This is better than the first list you posted.
    I think we can still improve upon it though.

    Leigh runs a similar style list. His lists failing (not really failing, he does well with it) mostly comes down to mobility.

    Troops.
    In 2/3 Rulebook and 4/4 NOVA missions (a popular tournament format) you need the ability to get scoring units across the board. (at least to midfield)
    So, you need a small re-write of your troops choices. Ben (in his post) kind of hints on this. Lets try a 2x10, 2x5 approach.
    2x10 Tactical Marines w/Multi-Melta, Meltagun, Powerfist, Rhino
    2x5 Tactical Marines w/Combi-?, Razorback, Lascannon and Twin-linked plasma
    (I recommend Combi-plasmas or Flamers. for units in your deploymemt zone.)

    Dreadnoughts are only frightening if you drop a bunch in your opponents face or have a way to get them into assault quickly (Blood Angels)
    With the prevalence of melta I do not think it is a good idea to have a Dreadnought anywhere near the enemy. Instead lets go with the hugely popular "Dakka Dread" (a Dreadnought with 2 Twin-linked Autocannons)

    The Land Speeders, Predators, and Vindicator are fine.

    Lets talk about the 10 man Sternguard squad. 315 points? Holy shit. Get rid of this. The best case scenario is they drop, split and kill 2 units. (likely vehicles or MC's) After that, they likely die. Lets see if we can find a more efficient way to use these points. (Speeders do the same thing for less points)

    Your Librarian has Gate of Infinity, who is he going to use this on, every unit is Meched up or across the board.

    Again, my point is not to copy Leigh's or my Razorspam lists, although it is pretty good.

    Here we are so far.
    Librarian w/The Avenger, Null Zone
    10 Tactical Marines w/Multi-Melta, Melta, Powerfist, Rhino
    10 Tactical Marines w/Multi-Melta, Melta, Powerfist, Rhino
    5 Tactical Marines w/Combi-Plasma, Razorback, Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasma Guns
    5 Tactical Marines w/Combi-Plasma, Razorback, Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasma Guns
    Dreadnought w/2 Twin-Linked Autocannons
    Dreadnought w/2 Twin-Linked Autocannons
    Land Speeder w/Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer
    Land Speeder w/Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer
    Land Speeder w/Multi-Melta, Heavy Flamer
    Predator w/Heavy Bolter Sponsons
    Predator w/Heavy Bolter Sponsons
    Vindicator

    Total 1665. We still have 335 points to work with.

    Lets look at some options.

    -Mike

    ReplyDelete
  3. I neglected to mention that you have 1 HQ, 2 TR, and an Elite slot open.

    I would add the following
    5 Tactical Marines w/Combi-Plasma, Razorback, Lascannon and Twin-Linked Plasma Guns
    5 Sternguard w/Rhino (to Give the librarian a ride and provide some Midfield control.

    -Mike

    ReplyDelete
  4. Well, that list would certainly help in the troops section, but it doesn't hardly have any close combat element whatsoever. That was the intention of the ironclads and Sternguard. I want that. deal with this or else, element. They were also the elements that separated it from a typical razorspam list, hence being my version.

    What my intention for the Sternguard and the Librarian were to drop pod in, and use gate to teleport around being a fire support element. They would probably never be in the same place for more than a turn.

    While I think that list creates massive amounts of firepower in all ranges, it doesn't really move away from the typical Mech Space Marines. Its a great list, but I want something a little bit different from the norm.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Thing is, people can easily deal with 2 Ironclads or 1 Ironclad+Sternguard+Libby dropping in front of them.
    Once those are gone in a turn, then what? You don't have any lasting way to deal damage.

    Some truth: Space Marines are NOT a close combat army. They can compete to be sure, but two Ironclads, some Sternguard, Pedro, and a Librarian does not a close combat army make.

    Space Marines do shooty midfield control best. This makes Razorspam and Termiespam quite good.

    Lets make an assault-oriented list.

    Shrike
    Librarian w/Null Zone, Vortex of Doom
    10 Tactical Marines w/Lascannon, Meltagun, Powerfist, Rhino
    10 Tactical Marines w/Lascannon, Meltagun, Powerfist, Rhino
    10 Assault Terminators w/8 TH&SS, 2 Lightning Claws
    10 Assault Terminators w/8 TH&SS, 2 Lightning Claws
    Land Speeder w/Multi-Melta
    Predator w/Lascannon Sponsons
    Predator w/Lascannon Sponsons
    Vindicator

    So.
    Shrike gives everyone Fleet.
    Combat squad everyone.
    Lascannon teams deploy on your objectives.
    Rhinos, Vindy, and Libby control midfield and get Null Zone going.
    Predators and Las teams open up armor/wound MC's.
    Terminators Bum Rush using Fleet and Shrike to extend charge ranges.

    Even Wolf Lords with Storm Shields do not like having to re-roll their Storm Shield Saves and Attack at I1 next round.

    More to your liking>

    -Mike

    ReplyDelete
  6. I am aiming for a balanced list. I want to strike a happy medium between assault and shooting.

    ReplyDelete
  7. But, as you said, Space Marines shoot much better than they assault. So, if there is any lean it would be to the shooty side. But, on the whole, I would like some close combat ability. Not necessarily to be the focus of the list, but an element.

    ReplyDelete
  8. You and I use the word "balanced" differently.
    When I say "balanced" I mean a list that has a good chance at winning the missions that are most used.

    The word "balanced" as in "I want to strike happy medium between assault and shooting" is something Space Marines have difficulty doing.

    The reason? Space Marines have few if any top-tier assault elements. Let's list what they do have.
    -Calgar
    -Lysander
    -Honor Guard
    -Assault Squad
    -Assault Terminators
    -Ironclads/Dreadnoughts

    Calgar/Lysander/Assault Terminators/Ironclads/Dreadnoughts/honor guard are too slow ion their own to be effective counter-assault elements. (If you mount them, they cease to be "counter-assault" elements)
    (If you include multiples of the above, you are building an assault army.)

    Your opponents faster, better CC units will strike you where your counter elements are not, they will be too slow to react.

    The only unit fast enough to be where you need it is the Assault Squad. What do you wager they will do against a tricked out Wolf Lord, Mephiston, a Trygon, or any of the above units?
    (Answer: get their asses beat, HARD)

    The way Space Marines become victorious against a close combat army is to LOSE close combat, choose to fall back, and shoot your opponent.

    It seems to me that a list like the type you describe might be better suited to a Blood Angel or Space Wolf Codex (that actually have useful Counter-Assault units).
    Would you be open to a Codex Change?

    -Mike

    ReplyDelete
  9. Yes, absolutely. I was considering the different codexes and the kinds of lists that can muster anyway, so a codex change would be completely fine.

    And I'm glad that we got the difference between words sorted out. I should have been more clear in the initial intention.

    Oh, and PS. I appreciate the help. Your lists have definitely given me some interesting ideas. I'm curious as to what else you have in mind.

    ReplyDelete
  10. I would prefer Blood Angels, however. Everyone and their grandma seems to play Space Wolves :P

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  11. Space Wolves do Razorspam better.

    I tested a list concept out at two tournaments.
    I went 3-1 then 2-2. Pete went 3-1.

    It is Blood Angels that centers around 60-70 dudes on foot.

    Librarian w/Shield and Sword
    4 Tactical squads with various loadouts
    3 Sanguinary Priests (inc. Corbulo)
    3 Attack Bikes w/Multi-Melta
    3 10 man devastators w/mixed weapons (usually 4 Missile Launchers)

    Would you like something based on this idea?

    Next is a RhinoSpam MSU assault that I have been working with.

    Mephiston
    4 5-man Assault Squads in Razorbacks w/melta, powerweapon, infernus pistol/lightning claw
    2 5-man Inquisitorial Storm Trooper Squads w/2 Plasma
    2 Librarian Furioso Dreadnoughts
    2 5-Man Devastators w/4 Missile Launchers, Rhino

    I have only used this at 1500 and 1850, where it is kind of beating face. (Mephiston + 2 Dreadnoughts assaulting is rough)

    Both list styles have their problems.
    But do either suit your fancy?

    -Mike

    ReplyDelete
  12. The second one is very appealing. I like it a lot. It gives pretty much all of the elements I want in a list. Good mobile shooting, good static shooting, and mobile assault. It's a pretty tough concept to reach, but a list like that seems to be awesome.

    I was also thinking of a list that takes a whole lot of AV13 in a list, commonly known as 9x13.

    ReplyDelete